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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:06 pm 
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Aliramone wrote:
I don't disagree but isn't that a different issue.? We are providing support for Ukraine they are bound to 'thank us' and 'take note'.
However us 'telling' or even suggesting another country changes it's behaviour because we don't like it is another matter surely.


I've already said we don't have that sort of power any more; we haven't since Aden. The UK cannot just act unilaterally.

But it is also not true that the UK is some random country, no more important than say, Italy, or Greece, in world affairs. It is, and we should leverage that. There are times when speaking up, either alone or as part of "the West" that our voice is valued.

Ukraine's admiration of the UK goes beyond thanking and taking note, for example. It is not just a transactional relationship. Germany provides a lot of military support now to Ukraine but because they had to be embarrassed into doing it then the political relationship is quite different.

Brexit damaged the UK's position on the world stage but not so much that we are just some third rate backwater in foreign affairs.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:40 pm 
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paul4040 wrote:
Aliramone wrote:
I don't disagree but isn't that a different issue.? We are providing support for Ukraine they are bound to 'thank us' and 'take note'.
However us 'telling' or even suggesting another country changes it's behaviour because we don't like it is another matter surely.


I've already said we don't have that sort of power any more; we haven't since Aden. The UK cannot just act unilaterally.

But it is also not true that the UK is some random country, no more important than say, Italy, or Greece, in world affairs. It is, and we should leverage that. There are times when speaking up, either alone or as part of "the West" that our voice is valued.

Ukraine's admiration of the UK goes beyond thanking and taking note, for example. It is not just a transactional relationship. Germany provides a lot of military support now to Ukraine but because they had to be embarrassed into doing it then the political relationship is quite different.

Brexit damaged the UK's position on the world stage but not so much that we are just some third rate backwater in foreign affairs.

Yup. So far as it goes I'd agree with that.
However although you and I can see through the 'we really matter/we are really significant on the world stage, so listen to us nonsense' but I fear many can't.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:20 am 
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There's little doubt that we've been diminished as a global power under Brexit. Equally, how must other major global players view us in light of recent events. 3 prime ministers in the last four years, and only yesterday the Conservative party in revolt yet again in regards to migration. Only this Conservative party could think that the Rwanda nonsense isn't harsh enough.

I don't really know what the answer is. They've ruined this country, and we're on the verge of becoming an international laughing stock. Imagine what we'd think of a country like Italy for example if they'd had 5 chancellors. 4 home secretary's. 4 health secretary's and an astonishing 6 education secretary's since 2019. And let's not forget in regards to the top job, last year we had 3 prime ministers in the space of 50 days. One of whom was outdone by a lettuce.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:08 am 
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Gers wrote:
There's little doubt that we've been diminished as a global power under Brexit. Equally, how must other major global players view us in light of recent events. 3 prime ministers in the last four years, and only yesterday the Conservative party in revolt yet again in regards to migration. Only this Conservative party could think that the Rwanda nonsense isn't harsh enough.

I don't really know what the answer is. They've ruined this country, and we're on the verge of becoming an international laughing stock. Imagine what we'd think of a country like Italy for example if they'd had 5 chancellors. 4 home secretary's. 4 health secretary's and an astonishing 6 education secretary's since 2019. And let's not forget in regards to the top job, last year we had 3 prime ministers in the space of 50 days. One of whom was outdone by a lettuce.


Really, yet it seems half the world still desperately strive to get here.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:39 am 
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donmentor wrote:
Gers wrote:
There's little doubt that we've been diminished as a global power under Brexit. Equally, how must other major global players view us in light of recent events. 3 prime ministers in the last four years, and only yesterday the Conservative party in revolt yet again in regards to migration. Only this Conservative party could think that the Rwanda nonsense isn't harsh enough.

I don't really know what the answer is. They've ruined this country, and we're on the verge of becoming an international laughing stock. Imagine what we'd think of a country like Italy for example if they'd had 5 chancellors. 4 home secretary's. 4 health secretary's and an astonishing 6 education secretary's since 2019. And let's not forget in regards to the top job, last year we had 3 prime ministers in the space of 50 days. One of whom was outdone by a lettuce.


Really, yet it seems half the world still desperately strive to get here.


It certainly does if you read and follow certain people and news outlets yet if you research yourself you find that we aren't seen as a dream destination for most of the world, those who want to come here do so as they typically have friends or relatives here already or speak the language.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:53 am 
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I'll be upfront here, I'm pro immigration. When I was in hospital back in the summer the whole of the health system was populated by immigrants.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:27 pm 
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Gers wrote:
I'll be upfront here, I'm pro immigration. When I was in hospital back in the summer the whole of the health system was populated by immigrants.


The company I work for couldn’t function without foreign labour. It’s not about salaries. It’s about availability of people with the right skills and attitude.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:43 pm 
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Gers wrote:
There's little doubt that we've been diminished as a global power under Brexit. Equally, how must other major global players view us in light of recent events. 3 prime ministers in the last four years, and only yesterday the Conservative party in revolt yet again in regards to migration. Only this Conservative party could think that the Rwanda nonsense isn't harsh enough.

I don't really know what the answer is. They've ruined this country, and we're on the verge of becoming an international laughing stock. Imagine what we'd think of a country like Italy for example if they'd had 5 chancellors. 4 home secretary's. 4 health secretary's and an astonishing 6 education secretary's since 2019. And let's not forget in regards to the top job, last year we had 3 prime ministers in the space of 50 days. One of whom was outdone by a lettuce.


Sunak is calling ministers back from overseas to vote pointlessly on an updated Rwanda bill as the Tories fanny about, tinkering at the edges, trying to make it a little more cruel.

Horrid party. They deserve to be out of power for a generation.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:20 pm 
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I really can’t believe that this Government is staking so much on being able to send a couple of hundred people to Rwanda. It’s going to make such a minuscule difference. What an issue to implode over. I can only think they’ve been so desperate that it’s the ultimate straw to clutch.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:14 pm 
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dons50 wrote:
I really can’t believe that this Government is staking so much on being able to send a couple of hundred people to Rwanda. It’s going to make such a minuscule difference. What an issue to implode over. I can only think they’ve been so desperate that it’s the ultimate straw to clutch.


I don’t get it either, in squabbling over something that in the long term isn’t going to work anyway, throwing millions of pounds at Rwanda that can be used here for better reasons, I think it’s just they have no control and have already accepted their death knell, chasing impossible and impractical ideologies


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