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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:51 pm 
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FilthyDon wrote:
The pitch played a part in that there is no denying, but it was the same for both teams. We were abysmal.

Did we even have an attempt on goal in the second half? Misplaced passes, poor defending. Wootton and EEL are just terrible defenders, couldn't cope with their striker.

Apart from one or two, none of the players looked up for it. First half we had a few minutes where we played some nice stuff I suppose, but the second half was pathetic.

I'm struggling to think of anything positive.


I know of something positive, my willy.

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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:06 pm 
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John N wrote:
That's not a reasonable approach. People need to stop thinking that there's only one 'good' style. The style you adopt OUGHT to depend on the circumstances, whether it's the calibre of the opposition or the state of the pitch. Much of Robinson's problem was that he couldn't adapt. A good manager will be flexible!

In general it makes sense to play longer if the pitch is crap. That's not exactly revolutionary, it's been known for a very long time.

I know what I want. For us to win a match for a change!!

This.

Adapt to conditions, adapt to opposition, adapt to whatever. All our opposition do it against us, and most get some reward.


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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Quite so, Sausage!


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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:31 pm 
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John N wrote:
That's not a reasonable approach. People need to stop thinking that there's only one 'good' style. The style you adopt OUGHT to depend on the circumstances, whether it's the calibre of the opposition or the state of the pitch. Much of Robinson's problem was that he couldn't adapt. A good manager will be flexible!

In general it makes sense to play longer if the pitch is crap. That's not exactly revolutionary, it's been known for a very long time.

I know what I want. For us to win a match for a change!!


Oldham didn’t play long. Played more short passes and linked up well than us by a long shot. Ben Pringle switched sides 4 times in the opening 5 minutes to give our full backs something to think about. They played better than us on that surface even with a similar if not better style.

We’ve never managed well long ball all season. Or general balls over the top. Agard can’t run on to shit, and our wingers haven’t got strength or enough power to outmuscle a centre half when chasing the ball man v man.

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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:53 pm 
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Your argument is fallacious. Just because Olham were better than us in playing the same way it does not follow that that was the best way to play. If you have a muddy, bumpy pitch you are more likely to succeed by playing directly than you are by playing short. It's absolutely elementary.

When I watched football as a lad in the 1950s pitches were far worse than they are now. I was watching what would have been a good Championship side nowadays. Our pitch was muddy. My proudest ever moment came when we beat the Manchester United pre Munich Busby Babes 4-0 in the FA cup. We caught them on a muddy pitch and played very direct. They didn't have a clue how to play on the stuff. We did. That was what made the difference. You adapt according to the circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 pm 
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John N wrote:
Your argument is fallacious. Just because Olham were better than us in playing the same way it does not follow that that was the best way to play. If you have a muddy, bumpy pitch you are more likely to succeed by playing directly than you are by playing short. It's absolutely elementary.

When I watched football as a lad in the 1950s pitches were far worse than they are now. I was watching what would have been a good Championship side nowadays. Our pitch was muddy. My proudest ever moment came when we beat the Manchester United pre Munich Busby Babes 4-0 in the FA cup. We caught them on a muddy pitch and played very direct. They didn't have a clue how to play on the stuff. We did. That was what made the difference. You adapt according to the circumstances.


If Oldham can play that way on that pitch we should’ve been able to. The pitch wasn’t the problem whatsoever it was generally how poor we were and how little creativity we put in.

We have to believe that a style can be played on any surface. Granted results are more important than style atm obviously but if you’re telling me playin direct yesterday would’ve benefitted I completely disagree. I saw a group of players who’ve been here all season playing directly and very poorly. Nothing about the football I’ve seen under Neilson this season fills me with hope that we can do it successfully at any point.

If we had went direct yesterday we’d have lost still. It wasn’t the style or the pitch that lost us the game it was the players being shithouse bottlejobs who can’t perform

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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:37 pm 
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Bertie, I was only a little boy but I do remember vaguely seeing him for a short time on our old black and white 12 inch screen telly! Those were the days!


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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Ally you just don't seem to get it. The point is that one style just CAN'T be appropriate all the time. It depends on too many variables. If you fail to be flexible you become totally predictable and like Robinson you get found out and pulverised because you have no plan B. If we had had the sense to play more directly against Oldham we would very probably have got something out of the match because we would have been playing appropriately for the situation.

If we had gone into that match with the two young wingers on and Muirhead and Aneke as tall central strikers and put a succession of high floated balls into the box, are you suggesting that we would have done WORSE? I very, very much doubt it. Oldham played stupidly for the conditions and we played even MORE stupidly. That's the gist of it! I appreciate that I am ignoring Aneke's injury but I have to do that for the argument's sake.


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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Just out of curiosity, not a “did you even see the game?” Type question but were you there?

Only reason I ask is because on numerous occasions we played long passes, and players could barely latch onto those let alone balls over the top. You can’t say “if we’d played it another way we’d probably have got something out the game” because you literally can’t state that as a given. We were atrocious from minute one but changing it up a bit wouldn’t have saved that.

I agree you generally need to be able to - but I don’t get the logic in “Oldham played stupidly”.. how? They played to their strengths, got a goal, had one disallowed and made chances.. by playing similarly to us. We just didn’t perform. We barely shot at goal, challenged the keeper with crosses or had any scrambles. That’s not down to style that’s down to decision making.

That game yesterday was absolutely not cut out for a direct style in any sense. Whether the pitch was bobbly or not. Agard can’t match a long ball. He hasn’t done all season. All our long cross field balls go out for throw ins or straight through to the keeper or a defender. That was the sort of game that required patient play and although we did that we didn’t do the second bit of creating chances. Whenever a gap appeared there were no shots. I was sat directly behind the goal on the left and usually that leads to a bit of fear of a football in the face. I genuinely think we didn’t have the ball in our stand once especially second half. Not even one high and wide? Decision making.

I wholeheartedly agree that you have to change it up a bit but to suggest we’d have “probably” got something out of the game if we’d gone a bit more direct is, in my opinion, wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Just awful
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Let me spell it out simply, then. Oldham may have played it short. That doesn't mean that they were 'playing to their strengths'. They were playing in a less suitable fashion than they could have done. So were we.

You can argue how you like. The simple fact is that you are more likely to succeed by playing direct on a poor pitch. The fact that the two teams decided to play in a less than efficient way at least partially explains why there were so many mistakes and why passes were misdirected and players got the ball stuck under their feet so much and so on. Even the Three Counties commentators (not the most perspicacious of pundits normally) mentioned the generally poor quality on display. I fully agree that these two teams are not of the highest calibre, but trying to play pretty football on a heavy, bumpy pitch won't have helped either of them in the slightest. It's like the example I gave of the Bristol Rovers - Man U cup tie. Man U were a wonderful side, full of skill and played in their usual style. Won the League that season. They got smashed because their usual style didn't work on a muddy, heavy pitch against a team with far less individual skill but whose style was perfectly suited to those conditions on that day.

If your argument was right you'd expect to play in the same way whether you were opposed by East Thurrock or Barcelona because you're claiming that you don't need to alter your approach no matter who you are playing or what the conditions are like. I don't think that makes any sense at all. It's just that sort of approach which Robinson adopted with catastrophic lack of success in his last season and a half.


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