THE CONCRETE ROUNDABOUT (TCR)

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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:07 am 
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keyser soze wrote:
The only doubt I have... I'd like to see him remain at a club for some time, and manage the transition from one great team to a second great team (a la Fergie).

But, frankly, that's a minor niggle. The history books will record that he is one of the very best of all time. The bastard.

This. And especially that.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:08 am 
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Come and manage MK Dons. Sure he’d have them playing nice football but I’d love to see what sort of players he’d sign at this level on this budget.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Slight segue, but it was mentioned before that Messi has nothing to prove. I just wonder if the fact that he has only done it at one club would be significant if it had been Ronaldo who had only done that and Messi had won the Ballon d'or playing in England like Ronaldo has. He also did that, scoring 42 goals, as a right-winger, before switching to left wing and then centre forward while at Real Madrid. This all round attacking game: height, strength, pace, trickery, two-footedness, makes him world class both in the air and on the ground, and is the reason why he has led three different teams - Man United, Madrid, and Portugal - to major honours. Whereas Messi, being small and all left foot, while a genius in the Barcelona / Guardiola style, but may not be so flexible and work in as many different ways as Ronaldo. For instance, Argentina have won 14 Copa America's and 2 world cups pre-Messi, but he has so far won no trophies during his dozen years with them; while Portugal had never been to a final pre-Ronaldo and have reached two with him, winning one.
There's no doubt they are both outstanding, and two of the greatest ever players, but I think it would have been interesting to see if Messi would have reached the same levels away from Barcelona or Guardiola and therefore having to adjust his game.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:10 pm 
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BertieWoostersDonsClub wrote:
Slight segue, but it was mentioned before that Messi has nothing to prove. I just wonder if the fact that he has only done it at one club would be significant if it had been Ronaldo who had only done that and Messi had won the Ballon d'or playing in England like Ronaldo has. He also did that, scoring 42 goals, as a right-winger, before switching to left wing and then centre forward while at Real Madrid. This all round attacking game: height, strength, pace, trickery, two-footedness, makes him world class both in the air and on the ground, and is the reason why he has led three different teams - Man United, Madrid, and Portugal - to major honours. Whereas Messi, being small and all left foot, while a genius in the Barcelona / Guardiola style, but may not be so flexible and work in as many different ways as Ronaldo. For instance, Argentina have won 14 Copa America's and 2 world cups pre-Messi, but he has so far won no trophies during his dozen years with them; while Portugal had never been to a final pre-Ronaldo and have reached two with him, winning one.
There's no doubt they are both outstanding, and two of the greatest ever players, but I think it would have been interesting to see if Messi would have reached the same levels away from Barcelona or Guardiola and therefore having to adjust his game.

The current Barcelona team under Ernesto Valverde is very 'un-Guardiola' like. They play a compact 4-4-2 and are pretty happy to go spells without the ball... and Messi continues to be a genius.

Also, it's disingenuous to say Ronaldo 'led' Portugal to a major honour. He had a decent - but not amazing - tournament and barely played in the final.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:34 pm 
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"Disingenuous" is a bit much. He was leading scorer of all European players in qualifying for the tournament. Portugal's leading scorer at the tournament itself despite, due to them having no striker (Andre Silva has come along since), having to play a dual role as both the teams target man (supplying aerial, hold up and link up play), as well as being the number nine finisher on top of that. He was also their captain so literally 'led' them. Yes, he was injured early in the final but given in every other game in qualifiers and at the tournament, he was their talisman then I think objecting to the term 'led' is a tad pedantic.
As regards Messi, I know they play slightly different under different managers but it's still Barcelona, against the same opponents. I was saying that it would have been interesting to see how he did in another country coming up against different styles of opponents and different tempos of play.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:19 am 
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Fair enough. I think you're slightly overstating his contribution, but it's all subjective, innit.

Hey, let's look at what they have in common: two exceptional players and two tax-avoiding wankers.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:27 am 
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Toby Carvery wrote:
Fair enough. I think you're slightly overstating his contribution, but it's all subjective, innit.
Hey, let's look at what they have in common: two exceptional players and two tax-avoiding wankers.

:D
Good posts. Yip, we'll call it, like their 5-5 Ballon d'or awards, a creditable draw.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:45 am 
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BertieWoostersDonsClub wrote:
Toby Carvery wrote:
Fair enough. I think you're slightly overstating his contribution, but it's all subjective, innit.
Hey, let's look at what they have in common: two exceptional players and two tax-avoiding wankers.

:D
Good posts. Yip, we'll call it, like their 5-5 Ballon d'or awards, a creditable draw.

Interesting discussion; I enjoyed that little diversion. :)

Whichever is the greatest, we've all been privileged to see two such fantastic players.

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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:10 am 
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keyser soze wrote:
BertieWoostersDonsClub wrote:
Toby Carvery wrote:
Fair enough. I think you're slightly overstating his contribution, but it's all subjective, innit.
Hey, let's look at what they have in common: two exceptional players and two tax-avoiding wankers.

:D
Good posts. Yip, we'll call it, like their 5-5 Ballon d'or awards, a creditable draw.

Interesting discussion; I enjoyed that little diversion. :)

Whichever is the greatest, we've all been privileged to see two such fantastic players.


Yep, something to tell the grandchildren.


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 Post subject: Re: Guardiola
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Going back on topic, one tactic Guardiola employs, which few others do, is having his full backs stay back, acting like fast centre halves, while at least one centre half goes into midfield. It's something I have sympathy with after an argument with a games teacher in a basketball match that the wider play shouldn't overlap as they had further on run, but everyone should budge up. He wasn't impressed.

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